This page was first published on the 7th of Deember, 2016 and last updated on the 7th of December, 2016 by Patrick Carpen.
It has been over three years now since I was a member of the Assemblies of God church in Lethem. There, as I mentioned in some of my other articles, I had the honor of meeting the beautiful Pastor Jenny.
I also had the honor of meeting her beautiful little granddaughter Eden, who was about eight years old when I first came to Lethem. Eden seemed to be a quiet and reserved child. She didn’t talk to me that much, but recently she opened up to me. That is, she spoke to me about things that were turning over on her mind. And I think the fact that I had recently started teaching at the high school she was attending had something to do with that. And how I returned to the teaching profession is another long story which I will address in another article. And I also think that the fact I was also Eden’s Sunday School teacher had something to do with her talking to me about the issues that brewed in the depths of her heart. At first, I answered her questions to the best of my abilities, and after a while, I thought to myself “I need to write this conversation down. This sounds really interesting.”
So here I am, the same Sunday afternoon, penning, or should I say, “pounding away” at this article which I think the whole world should read.
Eden grew up mostly with her grandmother, Pastor Jenny, who is Pastor of the Assemblies of God church in Lethem. She was raised by her since Eden’s mother lived in the city of Georgetown, a few hundred miles away from Lethem, because of career reasons.
Often, Pastor Jenny would preach on the issues of Salvation and particular, hell, which is the doom of sinners. One day, I decided to take her to task on this controversial subject of “Hell”, and I wrote the article “the concept of hell” which examines to the scriptures on hell to determine if it literally exists. You can read the concept of hell here.
One evening, Pastor Jenny invited me accompany her and Eden to a church in the neighboring city of Bonfim. To make a long story short, we didn’t find the church we were going to, but we ended up visiting another church. And it was truly a pleasure to be there, I must admit. When the worshippers started to sing, I was so enthralled, I thought to myself “I can understand why Jesus loves this”.
But after the worship, the Pastor, seeing that Pastor Jenny had visited from a neighboring town, invited her on stage. And there she veered her sermon around to the subject of hell, and she spoke about how people will be going to hell, and how we must pray for them to go to heaven, but how the sad fact is that many will still go there.
This kind of talk always disheartens me. On the way back, the atmosphere was tense, as I, Pastor Jenny and Eden sat in the moving car. I broke the silence just as she was pulling up to the curb to drop me off “Pastor Jenny…remember how one time you gave me a paper and asked me to write what I didn’t like about church…and how I didn’t understand what you meant”?
“I don’t exactly remember,” she replied. “I had given out so many papers so many times”.
“Anyhow,” I continued. “There is something I would like to express. And I’ll write an article about it. I mean there is something that bothers my mind a little bit. It’s complicated but I’ll write an article about it, to express my viewpoints.”
I didn’t want to bring up a debate in front of the little girl Eden about hell. So I kept the conversation at that level. That evening, I got on my computer and wrote the article on the concept of the hell. In summary, I covered the following points:
- The book of revelations is mostly symbolic. For example, Jesus killing nations of people with a sword sticking out of his mouth and God opening a book are mostly likely symbolic expressions. And we must pray to God to reveal their true meanings to us if He so desires. On these grounds, we may not be able to quote scriptures from the book of revelations as literal.
- Jesus spoke in parables. The story of the rich man in hell was a parable.
- God’s mercies exceeds man’s mercies. And if men would opt against a literal hell, how much more wouldn’t God show mercy?
It has been about a month now since Pastor Jenny had asked me to teach Sunday School. And I mentioned in one of my other articles that I accepted humbly, knowing myself to be not worthy, just as John the baptist said “I am not worthy to loosen the sandals of Jesus”. But as Jesus said to John the baptist, He also said to me “do it anyway”.
Anyway, this morning, Eden was in my Sunday school class, and I had just finished teaching them the lesson of Jonah, the man who ran from God’s will.
After kids finished the puzzles, questions and other activities from the lesson, Eden asked me “Sir Patrick, what does Jesus look like”?
“I have never seen him” I responded. “But several people have reported seeing him, and they all reported a similar description.”
“Does he have long hair or short hair?”
“I think he was described as having shoulder length hair by most people who claimed they saw him”.
“Is Jesus spirit or flesh?”
“Well, he came to the earth as flesh and blood, like us, and after He was risen, he remained flesh and blood (since Thomas inserted his finger through the wound).”
“So he is still flesh and blood”?
“Yes I think so.”
“So Jesus was made of clay like us, or something else?”
“I think He was made of the same substance of us, since He was born of a woman, as a human?”
“So who made Mary pregnant?”
“God did.”
“So God is Mary’s husband?”
“No, God just caused Mary to become pregnant. God can do anything by just “snapping His fingers”. He can snap his fingers and make me hungry, snap his fingers again and make me feel full. He can snap his finger and make me my hair fall of my head, snap his finger and make it grow back again…God just has to say the word and it’s done. He doesn’t even need to touch me”.
“So who is God’s wife?”
“I don’t think God has or needs a wife. He is above and beyond those things.”
“So who made God”?
“Nobody made God. He made everything. He is the know all and be all. He is the beginning and the end.”
“Its confusing.”
“I know dear.”
“So where is Jesus now.”
“He is sitting at the right hand of God”.
“And who is sitting at the left hand of God.”
“I don’t know dear, maybe no one is.”
“Maybe the devil!”
“No dear,” I laughed. “I don’t think so. Maybe the Holy Spirit, but I”m not sure”.
“Oh Yes!” Eden exclaimed, “The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”.
“Yes,” I said.
“So at the end of the world Jesus will come down to earth”?
“Yes”.
“And he can’t come before that?”
“He can if He wants to. And I’ve heard many stories of people seeing him.”
“Really?”
“Yes, and I’ll tell you a little story (and this is a true story). I was at the other Assemblies of God church some time back, and a man was giving a testimony of how he was sick, and how he couldn’t walk and how they lifted him into the church, and as he lay there, he saw Jesus coming through the door. He said he saw Jesus walk down the aisle and touched somebody on the right, touched somebody on the left, and then came and touched him. He was healed instantly. And he walked out of the church, and was never sick again”.
“Wow, and what did he say Jesus looked like?”
“I didn’t ask him, but I promise you we will visit him someday. And we can ask him. He lives in St. Ignatius village, not too far away”.
“So how can I see Jesus?”
“I don’t know. I guess you have to be really holy, and you have to pray and ask Him. And if he sees it fit. He will reveal himself to you.”
“So the sick man was holy.”
“No but the Pastor and elders who were praying for Him were holy.”
“So if I get sick and Holy people pray for me, I will see Jesus?”
“Not necessarily, Jesus will let you see Him if he wants to.”
“So why did Jesus let that sick man see him?”
“Because, I guess, Jesus wanted the man to know that it was Him, Jesus, who had healed him. Jesus can be right in this church, and we can’t see him.”
“Really.”
“Yes, he said that wherever two or three are gathered in his name, He will be there.”
“Really?”
“Yes, Jesus may be here right now, and if he wants, he can reveal himself to you. If He wants He can let you see him and I can’t. That’s how powerful Jesus is”.
“So Jesus is in other churches right now too?”
“Yes, he is in churches all over the world at the same time.”
“How can he be at two or more places at the same time?”
“Because He is God, and God is infininitely more powerful than men. God can be everywhere at the same time. We are finite, but God is infinite.”
“Its confusing.”
“I know dear, but in time you’ll understand.”
“So Jesus is God?”
“Yes, he is the manifestation of God, in the flesh, and he is also God. We can’t see God, but we can see Jesus. When Moses asked to see God, God told him that no man can see the face of God and live. So when Moses went up to the mountain to see God, He just passed across quickly showing only His back to Moses. But when Jesus came to earth, He said “if you want to see God, look at me. I guess God is so mighty and powerful, that He doesn’t want us to see Him, so He lets us see Jesus”.
“But I want to see God!” Eden demanded.
“Dear I don’t think that’s possible”.
“But when we get to heaven, won’t we be able to see God? I have so many questions!”
“I don’t know dear, but God has made it clear that He doesn’t want people to see Him”.
“Well maybe He doesn’t want us to see Him now because we are sinful and unworthy of His presence. But when we get to heaven, we will be free of sin, and He will let us see Him”.
“Maybe you’re right,” I responded.
“And in heaven, we will be praising God ALL the time?”
“Maybe not all the time, but we will praise God a lot up there.”
“But I was told we will praise God ALL the time in heaven.”
“Dear, I don’t think its possible for everyone to be praising God at all times in heaven. I agree that praises will be going on all the time. Maybe people will choose their own hours when they want to join in praise.”
“And I hear that there will be no night there, that the sun won’t go down?”
“Maybe the sun won’t go down. Maybe it will always be day in heaven.”
“So when will we sleep?”
“Maybe we won’t need to sleep. We will be never tired and never feel the need to sleep.”
“So what are the mansions in heaven for? I was told we will all have our own mansions. Isn’t the mansions for sleeping?”
“Yes, I guess we can sleep if we so choose to, but we won’t be tired.”
“Will there be animals in heaven?”
“I guess so, but they won’t be dangerous as the animals on earth. There will be no possibility of harm in heaven”.
“But what about our dog? I really want our dog to go to heaven. Will our dog go to heaven? He is so good and he watches over the churchyard at night.’
“I don’t know dear. I guess it’s not impossible. And I’m sure if you ask Jesus, He can find a way to bring your dog to heaven”.
“And won’t we be sad if some of our friends don’t make it to heaven? I mean, we would be in the line and we would pass, and we would turn back and see them trembling. And God will tell them “no!” So stern. I mean, here on earth, He lets us do what we want. He spoils us like a parent spoils a child, but on judgement day, He will exercise discipline. And it will be so sad for those people. I mean, why doesn’t he exercise discipline now?”
“That’s a good question dear.”
“And people will go to hell, and when we look back, if we don’t see our friends, won’t it make us sad?”
“I guess so dear, and I”m hoping to God that there is no literal, burning, eternal hell.”
“But the bible says that.”
“Well some people interpret the bible that way, but I’m not sure dear. And besides, we can beg God to have mercy.”
“But the bible says God won’t have mercy”.
“Well God can change His mind dear, There are many bible stories were God changed His mind when people pleaded with him”.
“Yea, I hope there is no judgement day. I hope the devil repents. I hope the devil says “God I’m so sorry.” And that would change everything”
“Yes dear, I hope so too.”